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Nh d2 championships - 2/20/2016

Discussion in 'Results Div II' started by Maple Grove, Feb 20, 2016.

  1. Coach Byrne

    Coach Byrne Newbie Registered

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
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    20
    I understand a lot of the points here. I do think that depending on the perspective, wrestling is an individual and a team sport. There's enough arguments on both sides to keep taking care of individuals and programs. Yes, we definitely want to provide spectators and student body with a great product. However, I hate to be redundant but as far as size of schools, demographics, location, proximity to good wrestling clubs, local competition to go against for improvement....there are absolutely 3 levels in this state that are distinctly different. I'm not saying a D3 kid can't beat a D1 kid, I'm saying the year-round opportunities to get better are so much easier for the typical D1 kid, so there really should be one week competing against similar schools and then one week to show your stuff vs everyone. I mentioned Colorado in an earlier post...CO does NOT have an all-state tournament. They stop at divisionals, which I think is a terrible idea because there are some small school kids that could beat the 5A (aka D1) kid, but they never get a chance. We do get both opportunities, where programs can compete against similar programs, then everyone gets to be on display at MOCs.

    For the spectators, it's great to see bigger tournaments, etc. but you get that at MOCs. The size of the state makes these arguments difficult because a small bracket at divisionals doesn't look right to me either, but I really think it comes down to the "eye test"...when you look around the state, there are three categories of schools that have wrestling, not two. I do agree that as programs build, maybe there should be more bumping up once you are established. But I don't think it's right to consolidate schools that are clearly different when we get an even better consolidation just one week later.

    I agree with Coach Darrin, maybe we need to keep improving our wrestling fraternity in the entire state and help each other recruit. The competitors in us probably want to keep some things a secret to protect our own success, but that just ensures that the rich get richer. Overall I think we have some great people in this state at the top of the wrestling world, so I think we are in good shape to do this kind of thing. Maybe doing a spring or summer clinic at Plymouth or Daniel Webster could be a good start? Get some of the best guys talking about recruiting, coaching philosophy, practice schedules, and other stuff besides technique. Could be good and we all get to hang out more throughout the year.

    We can all take one match or one weight class and prove any of the points listed above, but I think looking at an overall body of work over a period of time will show that consistently putting D3 type kids who have lesser opportunities to improve their wrestling against D2 or D1 kids only accomplishes the task of making the D2 or D1 kid look like he's on a higher pedestal. At the risk of sounding extreme, I'm not interested in making one kid a stepping stone for another kid's success/ego boost just so it's more entertaining for people who aren't putting in the physical work. One kid has one set of opportunities to get better and the other kid has a much tougher road. Let them fight it out at MOCs, not divisionals. Once NH clearly shows two levels of "wrestling opportunities", so be it, but we can't just base it on numbers, we have to look at the makeup of the state a little more deeply.

    The best point above is that we have the right guys who want to make this better and better every year. Even the guys who disagree handle it like good guys. If we keep that up while thinking of the kids, we will definitely keep improving.
     
  2. Classy

    Classy Well-Know Member Registered

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    Feb 25, 2010
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    How do d3 kids have different opportunities to get better than d1 kids?

    Don't all schools follow the same in season scheduling rules?

    And out of season? Kids travel all over to get the best competition. There are kids who drive hours to go to doughboy or smittys for workouts.

    Every kid in the state has the same
    Opportunity to get better in the off season, and that should have ZERO bearing on how NH runs their end of the year events.
     
  3. Upby2

    Upby2 Newbie Registered

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    Feb 11, 2012
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    The opportunities for wrestlers in the Southern and seacoast area ( Doughboy and Smittys' ) are better and year round than the opportunities for the majority of Div. III schools. Where is there a Smitty or Doughboy's for the schools North and West of Concord which are primarily Div III ( Newport,Winnisquam,Franklin,Kearsarge, White Mts., Mascoma, Plymouth, etc.. ).
     
  4. Coach Byrne

    Coach Byrne Newbie Registered

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    I have to agree. Sorry Classy I know you're a knowledgable guy but just because the best of the best are willing to travel hours doesn't mean the opportunities are the same. Hard work is number one so hats off to Timberlane, I love working with those kids. But, its fair to say that the team that can all carpool 10-15 minutes to Smittys has different opportunities than kids traveling hours to get there. The dedication of those kids is without question, but the fact that so many of them are at Smittys a lot isn't just because they are harder workers than the rest...some percentage of that is due to the proximity of an amazing club.
     
  5. Classy

    Classy Well-Know Member Registered

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    I would be interested in seeing how many Timberlane kids actually go to smittys.

    But the feeling I am getting around here From the last couple posts is rather than raise the bar, to just settle
    On the lowest common denominator. What is stopping people from starting a club north of concord?
     
  6. Coach Byrne

    Coach Byrne Newbie Registered

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    I totally get that, which is why the argument is complex. I don't think we are settling though. Yes I wish everyone had the best chance to get better, but they really don't have an even chance yet and that doesn't happen overnight. I think we have a design that allows programs to climb the ladder and we always finish with an all-state competition which satisfies what everyone from both sides wants. Now we have to look at how we step it up, but my opinion is that it needs to happen more in the areas of helping struggling programs, recruiting, etc. I know know we aren't in a typical forum battle here as everyone has good intentions, but I think all the opinions on here involve raising the bar for NH wrestling, and not settling. In my opinion, D3 should be a program builder and maybe that's the only tourney that should have small brackets, almost like an independent/trial period for teams to build up. Maybe we are closer to the same opinion than we thought! I know football has JV trial periods and that kinda stuff, maybe any team that clearly has things going well should be in D1 or D2, but have a place to get your feet under you. I just saw it with my own eyes in Windham, and I think other teams are getting there because of the current setup. Maybe to discourage teams from staying there too long, we rename it to "Independent" or something like that. Sometimes simple things like that can get teams motivated to jump up if they are ready. Just throwing ideas around and honestly I appreciate your opinions too I really think this is a solid discussion. Take care guys
     
  7. witty1

    witty1 Active Member Registered

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    Apr 25, 2005
    Messages:
    94
    Motivation, a coach in the school system, supportive parents, kid willing to go the extra mile, off season work (see extra mile). Also winning breeds more interest and success wrestling is a tough sport to explain to a kid. "Ok now your going to wear this spandex unitard and role around with guys) while your buddies are working and riding there snowmobiles. I know that I and I am sure we all have seen the kids that coulda, shoulda, didn't. Due to the excuses of a girlfriend, a ride, or work. I know this is all over the place but I coached this year in Georgia and witnessed the football conflict I.e. Football coaches telling kids that they won't start if the wrestle. Years ago I had a conversation with George Bossi Lowell high wrestling legend he told me that 231 kids had come out for the hockey team the didn't cut anyone they had like 6 jr teams with 100 lines or something he said some of the hockey kids will never touch the puck in a game but they don't care. I also said one day to Barry Choolijan "what exactly do you feed those kids?" And " any secrets from your room I could drag out of you" he said "your welcome to come up anytime and sit in on a practice". It is also the fact that the outside world thinks all contact sports are full of meat heads. I know this I have been coaching 20+ years and I have coached New England champs, state champs and absolute scrubs what separated them was work ethic and smarts I would rather have a smart kid than a meathead you can breed toughness and confidence in four year it's tough to take the dumb outta someone. We have all seen the brawler get mad and sprint at the smart wrestler arms out like a freight train and get tossed to his back. I guess to sum it all up, when winning happens kids want to be a part of it no matter the sport, they can overlook the uniform or the comments at school about gay this or that. When a kid sees the team lose regularly they are not so excited about the proposition of everyday practices and 14 hour Saturday's with 5 am busses. So everyone can say this or that about one division or 5 but in the end I think it comes down to promoting our sport to the best of our ability. Feeder programs are a must I watched H.B.H.S turn a corner when we got a youth program going so much that I have put the wheels in motion on a 7-8 grade program here in Georgia.
     
  8. witty1

    witty1 Active Member Registered

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2005
    Messages:
    94
    Motivation, a coach in the school system, supportive parents, kid willing to go the extra mile, off season work (see extra mile). Also winning breeds more interest and success wrestling is a tough sport to explain to a kid. "Ok now your going to wear this spandex unitard and role around with guys) while your buddies are working and riding there snowmobiles. I know that I and I am sure we all have seen the kids that coulda, shoulda, didn't. Due to the excuses of a girlfriend, a ride, or work. I know this is all over the place but I coached this year in Georgia and witnessed the football conflict I.e. Football coaches telling kids that they won't start if the wrestle. Years ago I had a conversation with George Bossi Lowell high wrestling legend he told me that 231 kids had come out for the hockey team the didn't cut anyone they had like 6 teams with 100 lines or something he said some of the hockey kids will never touch the puck in a game but they don't care. I also said one day to Barry Choolijan "what exactly do you feed those kids?" And " any secrets from your room I could drag out of you" he said "your welcome to come up anytime and sit in on a practice". It is also the fact that the outside world thinks all contact sports are full of meat heads. I know this I have been coaching 20+ years and I have coached New England champs, state champs and absolute scrubs what separated them was work ethic and smarts I would rather have a smart kid than a meathead you can breed toughness and confidence in four year it's tough to take the dumb outta someone. We have all seen the brawler get mad and sprint at the smart wrestler arms out like a freight train and get tossed to his back. I guess to sum it all up, when winning happens kids want to be a part of it no matter the sport, they can overlook the uniform or the comments at school about gay this or that. When a kid sees the team lose regularly they are not so excited about the proposition of everyday practices and 14 hour Saturday's with 5 am busses. So everyone can say this or that about one division or 5 but in the end I think it comes down to promoting our sport to the best of our ability. Feeder programs are a must I watched H.B.H.S turn a corner when we got a youth program going so much that I have put the wheels in motion on a 7-8 grade program here in Georgia.
     
  9. Joe Laplante

    Joe Laplante Well-Know Member Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2004
    Messages:
    738
    Witty, it's good to read your thoughts again. I'm going to stop by You You, order the spicy tuna roll, and raise a glass to your Georgia success.
     
  10. jason.cumming

    jason.cumming Active Member Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    98
    This is the exact reason why I started the Gryphons program 5 years ago (wow...I can't believe it's been 5 years!) I had a bunch of kids here in Manchester that didn't have the means to travel to Smitty's or Doughboys. It was also befuddling to me that the largest city in the state with a perennial youth powerhouse (Manchester YMCA Eagles) and 3 high school programs didn't have a training center. So I started it. It takes commitment, a whole lot of sacrifice, but it was well worth it. We built a community here in Manchester, we just started our youth program at the Gryphons, and we have area coaches. Dan Saia, the Memorial coach, has joined in with us and is committed to growing the sport here in Manchester. We are trying to raise the bar and the standard and we have been able to expand our travel radius thanks to the funding we receive through the MPAL. But it is a process. We spent two years at the Training Station, this will be our 3rd season at the MPAL and we are growing. I remember when I was in my 3rd season running the Gryphons and talking to Matt Smith and he reminded me encouragingly that it took him 12 years to grow his program into what it is now. I leaned on him and Mike Marshall for a lot of advice. Mike was the one who said we had to start a youth program. Period. So we did. I found a great coach with a wrestling and judo program with an extremely supportive family. The MPAL has seen our success and is now promoting us at their Cops N' Kids events when they go around to the Elementary Schools. It'll get there. But it takes time.

    That being said, I know Bow just started up the Bow Brawlers. There is still the Crimson Tide Wrestling Club that is comprised of mostly Concord kids. I know that Tristan Stetson used to travel to Catamount, travels to Gate City, and has been to us a few times. Tyler Sharron traveled to us on a regular basis. The Waterburys have also. One thing that was important to me was running the opposite days of the Barn and Doughboys so that our wrestlers could be exposed to as much as they could. Effectively, every wrestler in the state can go to a different club any day of the week.
    Smitty's and Doughboy practice every day Sunday through Thursday.
    Gryphons practices Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday...and we are trying to add Saturdays.
    Gate City practices Wednesdays and Sundays.
    Crimson Tide (I believe...someone correct me if I'm wrong) practices on Wednesdays. They also have the BGS Brawls and I'm in the process of trying to start something similar at Central through the summer.
    That is a whole lot of wrestling that can be utilized that I don't think is to its maximum potential. But adding the Bow program and I believe Todd Thone is trying to start something up in the Lakes Region...we could effectively have 5-6 programs running in this state.
     

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